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Hello
I am in the market for an M3, but haven't quite decided on the generation yet (hence the 2-in-1 wanted ad).
I am looking for either an:
1. e46 (>2004 coupe with a manual gearbox); or
2. e92 (more relaxed about the year and transmission type).
If you're selling either of these, give me a shout.
Thanks
Good luck. There's nothing decent for sale here.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane
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Hence my other post today about VRT!
There’s certainly very little for sale from what I can see from the likes of Carzone and DoneDeal, but I thought it no harm to ask on an enthusiast forum to see if anything was going.
Very little for sale at the moment over here. There is a lovely e46 on this site but it is SMG. I think you need to really think about buying on condition alone and not be constrained by year as you won't find a lot of E46 '04
Buy an smg e46 if you want to get a decent car without paying 15k+ . Ive had loads of both an id buy another smg in the morning. Chillipeppers car is a cracker for sale on here
Be sure to drive an SMG before you do it, I quite like them but they are very dim witted.
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As mentioned have a look at Chillipeppers car. Excellent example.Quote:
Originally Posted by alan b
Thanks for the responses. I've looked at Chillipeppers ad and agree it looks to be a beautiful car, my only apprehension really is SMG. That said I've never actually driven an SMG, so I'm only going on the prevailing view which seems to be quite negative. But I should probably try to drive one before ruling it out altogether.
In terms of cost, I'm happy to pay >15k for the spec and model I'm looking for, and actually if I am importing from the UK I'm expecting closer to 18k-20k when you factor in VRT. My dilemma is whether to do that or go for an e92, because at the spec and model of e46 I'm looking at you're not a million miles from the cost of a pre-LCI e92.
I have driven both extensively and have to say the e92 is a fantastic car. It is superior to the e46 in every measurable way and makes a truly amazing sound. The e92 is good value at the moment too. Only thing with them is they use fuel like there is a hole in the tank. E46 is a much slower car, more low tech..but its more collectable at the moment, is a total icon and IMHO has a great look.
Both are fine cars but it depends on what you want to do with it. The whole SMG thing is a red herring. Everyone goes on about a manual basically because Chris Harris has told us its more involving but the SMG is easier to live with and faster on track or when really pushing on. The are not that unreliable and hell a SMG is easy to convert to a manual if you want ,it has everything already just a pump and computer attached to the gearbox. I actually like the feel of SMG2 its savage, but no doubt the manuals are more in demand.
Interesting, thanks for the insight.
First and foremost it will be my daily driver. So fuel economy is pretty much the only thing that's putting me off the e92. I don't do huge mileage, maybe 15-20km per day for my daily commute, but it's mostly "urban". I've heard and read mixed views on this - some people say the fuel economy is catastrophic, others say it's not that as bad as expected (but I suppose that's relative and depends on your starting point).Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe
I've also heard some people say the e92 isn't that much worse on fuel than the e46 - not sure if there's much truth to that?
Fuel on a urban run will be low teens. 20km a day is nothing...My opinion the e92 for a commute...make sure it has the upgraded stereo and get a smg its awesome in the e92.
It's DCT in the E92. Even betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Moe
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Dave....thanks for highlighting my shame, I am off to say 20 bavarian hail marys for a schoolboy error....:)
Lol, sorry man, I hate being that prick [emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe
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I’ll start this by saying I sold a manual e92 m3 which I’d only kept for 6 months and bought a manual e46 m3 which I’ve had for three and a half years and have no plans to sell.
I mainly use both for commuting from the burbs into the city centre and early morning runs to the airport. Fuel economy in the e92 was about 16mpg - 18mpg whereas the e46 is 19mpg-21mpg. Given the low mileage I do the absolute wasn’t much different but it felt like I was always in the petrol station in the e92.
I sold the e92 for 2 reasons. Mine was 5 years old and had a cosseted life but lots of stuff kept going on it: Abs unit, interior switch gear, creaky seats which irritated me. It was all covered by the extended warranty but I got sick of going to Murphy & Gunn with it. The second reason was I don’t think it suited rush hour city centre traffic. On the motorway it was a monster, the natural cruising speed for the car was 180 Kmh but around town in stop start traffic there was an initial inertia to over come from a standing start if you couldn’t plant the accelerator and rev it. This became very frustrating and ultimately was why I sold it. I did wish I had tried a DCT version but never got the chance.
By contrast the e46 feels nippy and responsive. It is slower the the e92, on a motorway it’s happiest about 150kmh if you’ll let it go there. Around town it’s light enough to be responsive and can squeeze through gaps that appear in traffic. Writing this now makes me want to take it out of storage and tax it for a few months.
Just my 2p as in reality both are great.
I have had 3 of each, all manual. For a daily it has to be an e92. If I buy another it will be DCT though. The e46 is probably a better weekend car, it can be enjoyed at lower speeds. I found that the e92 only starts getting going at about 80mph. The e46 would be cheaper to maintain and run by a long way as well.
Thanks for all the responses, really interesting to hear real world experiences.
I am definitely leaning towards the e92, but really the only thing putting me off is fuel economy, even though I won't be doing massive mileage. But I don't want to get too hung up on it either. As a comparison at the moment I'm driving around in a Mk4 Golf GTI and most of the time it struggles to get over 20mpg (probably due to it being riddled with engine problems), and with a significantly smaller fuel tank than the e92. My point is I don't find this to be particularly bad, so while an M3 will obviously be worse I am not sure if it would be so much worse as to justify not getting one. The problem I suppose is you just don't really know until you've lived with the car.
For a while I was even toying with the idea of an M6, but that's probably pushing it...
there is a m6 grand coupe on backroads for sale section at the moment, that is quite possible one of the nicest I have ever seen.
I meant the V10!
Read rebel.ranters ownership thread, they're a car that require deep pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane
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Amen Dave.....I can attest first hand that they are a car with some expensive issues. But they do have their rewards. I was amazed at the runway club event how fast they are when you get to give them full bore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Ah yeah I'm not really considering one to be honest, perhaps one day but as a daily driver they do seem highly inappropriate.
Got a link? I've searched for it but can't seem to find itQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave
E92 for me - the V8 is just amazing , I doubt I'll have another engine like it. The fuel economy is negligible for that mileage imo ~18mpg vs 20
cost wise it's on par with the e46 for me
Music to my ears...Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyd
There is no thread for my M6, I never did one for it for some reason, in fact I haven't really kept a thread going on any of the cars for ages. A lot of what is said here resonates with me. The low teens MPG, I'm about 15-16 mpg combined, and yep I've seen 7 mpg during Christmas time rush hour traffic. I've also seen 7 mpg on the runway!Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane
Also feel the same about the car (M6, similar traits to the e92 M3) only getting going at 80mph, you need to be up near 140mph before it starts feeling any bit challenging...a problem on public roads!!!! I have much mor efin in the Mini Cooper S. The M6 is a handful, 507bhp is almost too much in a rear wheel drive, only on a dry day can you properly get the power down, I took off on Sunday not too hard and I ended up sideways leaving a set of traffic lights in the wet....and I'm driving it 4 years, it still catches me out!
As John mentioned the e92 M3 & e63v M6 are almost too aggressive for commuting in traffic, they are designed to go fast and seem uncomfortable in traffic. I remember 4-5 years ago driving JohnH's e92 M3 with the DSC unit being faulty, I was in stop-start traffic, was looking out the window at something, noticed that traffic had moved on and I panicked a tad and decided to close up the accidental gap, I ended up nearly side ways briefly!
Moe mentioned SMG III, thank feck someone had the balls to say it!!! SMG III is raw and clunky and mechanical......that makes it better than an auto or DCT in my book. It feels like something that needs taming, yeah all the motoring journos made light of it, they also made light of iDrive at the time yet now, every manufacturer has a version of iDrive. It's a great feeling shifting in the SMG III, you feel like you are banging through the gears not piloting a Playstation game.
Yep, the v10 is still quick, it's a big old car but it managed (just about) to stay ahead of the current M3/M4 which is savage considering the leaps in technology. But then again I've seen my fair share of woes (JohnH only had a taster), the good days make up for the bad ones though.
I'll hang on to mine for another while, I've still got warranty, goodwill, and some sort of angel looking over it. Sometimes I say the thing is made of chocolate it melts down that often, but chocolate also tastes good......
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...psfmhsro7l.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...pslkxlmiyz.jpg
Rebel I totally agree. When a new M car come out they always find fault. The e46 was not torquey enough, the e92 was thirsty, the f8x didnt sound great. They are not controllable, then when they put auto's and 4wd in them they are too tame and not like M cars.
Frankly after the e46 these cars all had too much power. The F8x M was classic they had to alter the torque curve in 1st and 2nd because daft dentists were spinning them all over the place and complaining to BMW.
Power is easy to make, but making a car safe while leaving that fear (fun) in it is hard. I like savage shifts, I like a giddy rear end, I like drive train noise and diff noise. Powerful 4wd audis do nothing for me, they are too easy, too sterile. M cars should feel angry and alive.
When we are all sitting in electric cars riding torque from 0-60 in 3 seconds we will look back on the golden era of M cars fondly.
Ive always felt that the e46 m3 has the perfect balance of power and grip, you can really hammer them with confidence you wont have a big off, and even if they get abit loose they are easy manage.
I was caught with my pants down once or twice in the v10, even with the best of tyres, they are a serious handful on throttle. As moe said it will give me fond memories in years to come. I drove an i8 there last week and made me realise that the future is fairly bleek. Noise from a speaker is the beginning of the end.
If i was you id be looking for a well sorted e46 m3, with floor done head gasket/rod brearings. And enjoy it. I dont think an e92 would be as rewarding everyday as the e46
Was expressing my agreement with this when I went into a massive tangent about how great early super cars would've been with ~500bhp and no safety features to speak of :D (when an average saloon had probably 80...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe
It's not a death wish or anything, but you would respect the car and whoever drove it more if it required actual skills to drive!
I'm glad this thread has generated such discussion!
Thanks so much for the replies, the opinions are all very helpful.
rebel.ranter - Do you use the M6 as your daily driver and if so how long is your commute?
Funnily enough, I'm in a not too dissimilar boat as yourself at the moment. So I'll share my feedback, ignore it if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane
I had an E39 M5 which I recently sold after 3.5 years of ownership.
I've been deliberating all kinds off options and have driven the following cars. E46 M3, 997 C2S, M135i, M140i, M2, Audi B7 RS4, C5 RS6, manual E92 M3, DCT E92 M3 and Rebel.Ranter was kind enough to let me take his M6 for a drive.
This is my opinion of each car.
E46 M3 - gorgeous, but arguably slow, if you buy a tidy one, they're now almost too valuable to plough mileage onto.
997 C2S - Not convinced on the engine, the M5 was more of occasion, handling wise the steering feel was stellar, they do feel a bit cheap inside though. Too expensive
M135i - so much bang for your buck, feels very very small compared to the others, it took it for a reasonably spirited drive and the chassis doesn't feel as competent as the drive train - good value proposition and I think ownership would be reasonable.
m140i - awesome engine, more refined and feels more planted, feels a good bit more powerful than the M135i. Both the M140i and the M135i feel more like very capable hot hatches than anything special.
B7 RS4 - planted, steering slightly corrupted under power, great handling. Probably a bit over priced for what they are, thirsty and can get spendy.
C5 RS6 - cool as fuck, very quick, crap gearbox, I'd be tempted but want a car that's made for the twisties.
E92 M3 - best looking car of the lot, feels very special, the DCT has a sense of occasion about it and provides another layer of personality that suits the engine very well, but as rebel.ranter says, it's almost too capable, the gear shifts are perfect. The manual car feels more old school, great steering feel. Really liked it but the DCT would be my pic.
I think they are in a funny place in the market, they've been a 25 - 30k car now for 6-8 years. I was looking at sub 50k mile cars with DCT, EDC, extended red leather and logic 7.
I think their values are going to take a serious hit over the coming months with M2 / M4 and F80 M3 prices plummeting.
After all of them, I drove the M6 and it is, hands down the most special car I've driven, the sense of occasion of the thing is on another level and I would love one but the ownership costs terrify me.
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Great feedback Dave - how about the 335i? you've had me thinking about one of them since I seen you replaced the E39 M5 with one. Having said that I'd love to go back to an E39 M5 again
I bought the 335i as a daily, they're 25% the cost of an M3 and they're definitely not 25% the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by eamo
I picked mine up for what I thought was small money, full main dealer history with clean bill of health, just had a €2k service, including new water pump, rocker cover and gasket, pcv, and oil filter housing.
Now, having put 1500km on it, here's the issues.
Waste Gate rattle - fix - new turbos - €2500
Inexplicable haemorrhaging of engine oil - ??
Occasionally, I have absolutely no brake bite - assuming it's a brake servo - €600
Suspension refresh - €1500
That's outside of a new set of pilot sport 4s tyres €850 + €100 fitting and balancing
I think this is gonna be a €10k car by the time I have it sorted and it may have been much smarter to buy a facelift DCT N55. Then again, I'll have an absolutely sorted car with forged internals and an easy 500hp as I'll be fitting uprated turbos rather than the OE units. Fit an LSD and it'll be a monster.
Parts are also cheap, they're half the insurance cost of the M5 and it'll do 30 mpg (which is important to me as I'm a fan of putting mileage on my cars) but I'm not sure they're the bargain everyone thinks they are, especially if you're particular about the car being right.
Mines in getting fixed at the moment, I'm back to the Lexus which has taken nothing but fuel since I bought it.
JohnH's friends car was probably the one to buy.
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Yep, I adored my 335i and it never gave me any trouble but I would be nervous of picking up another unless I know it’s history and it has the right work done otherwise it can get very expensive - LSD is a must!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
John’s friend’s 335i is gone - the 530i’s previous owner bought it ;)
I would fancy a run side by side an e92 m3. My e46 is a weapon at the moment with the mods.
That is a CSL airbox, tuned to suit, 4.1 final drive. Lots of other mods including racing tunnel mounted gear shifter but the airbox and final drive are the main performance upgrade. Its also a nice bit lighter than the e92. Would be interesting.!
A decent E46 is 15-20k €5k more gets you into an E92 and objectively, they're a different class of car.Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerm3
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Very true, e92 m3's have there own issues that would need sorting though. would say rod bearings should be done asap. After all they are exact same as the v10 and have the same problem. So add another 2 odd grand onto the price of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
E46s have fallen into 3 categories now.
Low mileage "investment" garage queens
Higher mile well maintained cars
Rough ones floating about the 120k mile range with big bills pending.
I would say if your going to daily drive one i wouldnt be too worrid about mileage and buy one condition and history
Great post, thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
I've also considered some of the other cars you've mentioned but ruled them out for various reasons (mainly because I just don't like the look of them, i.e. the 1 series or the RS4 or RS6...). I agree with you that the e92 m3 is the best looking out of all of these, I think it's just about perfect looking.
Naturally I have been looking at 335i's as well. I loved everything about my LCI e92 except for the fact that it was a 4-cylinder diesel, so a similar spec 335i would probably tick a lot of boxes for me, and I guess would be a lot more suitable as a daily driver than an M car.
Having said all that, I haven't driven any of these cars yet!
Interesting point you make about the value of the e92 M3. I sort of assumed these cars had started to bottom out now, but I hadn't really considered the impact of the subsequent generation depreciating.
This is exactly right. I would also include the category of the "shitter"...a 4k sterling one thats a total pig.Quote:
Originally Posted by alan b
Had two E46 M3's, one manual and an SMG CS, driving a manual E92 M3 now.
To be honest I think the CS was my favourite.
The E92 engine is brilliant and the sound is amazing but im not in love with the car and could move on without missing it too much.
I think the E46 has more character to it and to be honest I think its ageing better.
On the motorway the E92 is fantastic and I could be tempted o try a later model DCT at some stage.
Both lovely cars.
Thanks for the feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remote
It's interesting the number of people who seem to prefer SMG over manual on the e46, given it's contrary to the prevailing view. If I could get on board with an SMG it would certainly make my job easier finding a car! I must test drive one if I ever get the chance.